paaiyan wrote:And girls, if joanna decides to join that is.
I'm never one to miss out on a good argument... wait, I mean... discussion... that's it.
So I shall now put you all off the discussion with a very post:
Who here has heard of
Occam's (Or Ockham's) Razor?
In it's simplest (translated)form: "Entities should not be multiplied beyond necessity", which is often quoted as "All things being equal, the simplest solution tends to be the best one."
If this is applied, the question is changed - "Is a world formed by a god, or by chance the simpler likelihood?"
Please note, that is
NOT "Is a world formed by chance, or a world formed by God more likely?"
The answer is fairly plain - Between "World" and "World + God", the option on it's own has to be simpler.
However, Occam's Razor is not a hard and fast rule, so we cannot say that this proves the question by any manner or means.
Some of you may have come across Richard Dawkin's new book, "The God Delusion". What I say here is essentially a cut down version of one of the chapters of the book.
Take the Theory of Evolution (with a meal, and plenty of fluids. For best results, you should not excercise for 2 hours prior to, or after taking.)
Darwin himself admitted that if any case could be found of any creature or part of a creature was "Irreducibly complex" (the case being there would be no way for it to come about by multiple miniscule changes - and therefore could only have been designed by an intelligent being), then this would prove a Creator existed.
Many examples of this "Holy Grail" of creationism have been put forwards - including the eye and wing - but these examples have been disproved.
There are many cases of "half-eyes" in the natural world - creatures with eyes like pinhole cameras that give blurred images, or even just as simple as an eye that can only give the owner an idea of general illumination (e.g. Is it night time or day time? Am I in the open, or under a rock?)
Now, if there were an indeniable case of an "irreducibly" complex organ or creature, this would have to prove one of the following:
1)The existence of a God.
2)A scientist with a big genetic laboratory created this, then let it free.
3)Aliens messing around with us, and leaving a load of creatures behind.
4)Absolute pure chance resulting from genetic mutation caused by cosmic radiation or similar.
Discarding 4 because the chances are longer than the Trans-Siberian railway, and considering 2 and 3 to be essentially the same thing, we are left with:
1) God exists (outside the universe)
2) Someone else with the ability to generate beings to their own design exists (within the universe)
Now, people will argue either way over this. But here is the clincher... If God exists, must he himself not be extremely complex - and presumably, Irreducibly so?
To have a creator, you must have a reason for the creator's presence.
This could be:
1) God has existed infinitely long, and has no beginning and no end.
2) God has been created by some manner or means - either by chance, or another creator.
If you agree to 2, the chances are again, very long of it being sheer concidence, so therefore - if God has a creator, then how did that creator come into being?
You eventually either hit a barrier where either a creator has existed infinitely long, or that a creator exists by chance (which with enough creators, becomes increasingly likely)
But if you have a huge array of Gods, why not just a huge number of universes, and just chance bringing everything together nice and kosher?
The dilemma continues. But by Occam's Razor, the non-existence of God has to be the simpler solution.
Personally, I subscribe to a totally different theory - the simulation theory. For this, the universe is a simulation - not quite like the Matrix, as you are simulated too, but that's a reasonable analogy.
If you are going at this point: "What? I don't want to be a simulation!", then here is a list of three points - of which one must be true, and the other's false. (Advanced society means one with the technology to be able to create a virtual world as complex as ours).
1) No advanced society has yet existed, because either the universe is too young, or all societies thus far have been destroyed before becoming advanced
2) No advanced society wants to simulate another world.
3) We are almost certainly simulated.
Thinking about it, #1 is pretty unlikely - someone somewhere must have adavanced beyond our "primitive" society.
#2 has already been disproven - need I say more than the words "The Sims"?
Therefore, #3 is the most likely answer. And therefore, there is a creator of the universe (because computers don't just spring up out of nowhere) - probably some spotty little alien teenager - who himself is probably simulated - and their maker is probably simulated, as is theirs...
Is your head hurting yet? So, the most likely situations are the following:
1) an almost infinite array of Gods.
2) an almost infinite array of parrellel universes, some of which "work", more of which "don't".
3) an almost infinite array of serial universes, each one simulated within the last, like a huge branching tree splitting off.
As I said, I agree with 3.
Others may like 4) Singular God, and 5) Singular Universe + a lot of chance, but those are very unlikely.
Now you've all had to stumble off for migrane pills, how about we go onto a different subject?
