Noob invasion

[POLAND_SPUD]

You've been here less then a year, so you haven't seen as much as some of the other members. It's just that when noobs ask you to do all the research for them, while they think they can just sit back and wait for someone to spoonfeed them over and over, it gets annoying.

well I had been lurking the forum for a while before I joined... browsing threads and learning... and that's the way it should be done

and I wasn't reffering to n00bs who start threads titled 'tell me how to build an uber cannon' or the dude who has asked how to build a cannon that can be shoot comfortably from car:P
I understand that people ask stupid questions (from our point of view) but hey sometimes things seem difficult to understand but they turn out later to be quite obvious when you finally get the idea (for example - how a piston valve works)

well this thread does not lead us anywhere so let's draw some conclusions:
seperate forum for noobs - bad idea
not showing threads from new members - bad idea
writing instructables and organising them in a neat way - YES
improving search function - YES

[pizlo]

I used to get angry at noobs with bad grammar asking dumb questions... Then I looked at my first 3 posts and realized that I was worse than most of the noobs that post. Quite a humbling experience. I say deal with em, and hope they develop into amazing leet people like me!

[MrCrowley]

Instructables - bad idea.

The only reason I make them is to spread the word.

After spending hours writing every detail I still get idiots who ask or say the stupidest things ever.

I do not believe we should be spoonfeeding noobs Poland. Do you really want a 13 year old kid running around the streets with a cannon that can easily kill, that they do not know the principles behind, nor do they have any respect for it. Knowledge = respect.

No knowledge, no respect. If he had to be spoonfeed how to build a cannon, he doesn't know enough to own or operate one.

I know you want to be Mr. Nice Guy, but handing out plans for anyone to make a cannon is definitely not the way to go. It's beyond stupid, it's beyond idiotic.

This site would be in trouble so damn fast we wouldn't know what hit us. I imagine there are quite a few teenagers out there with a vengeance or would like to have some fun on a Saturday night driving around with their friends. By spoonfeeding them this information we don't know what they are going to do with it.


Personally, no matter what, I will never be part of any spoonfeeding of cannons to people who do not know what they are doing. Even my instructables require some knowledge to build and are usually quite expensive.

And last but not least, give a man a fish, feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish, feed him for a life time.

You just want to give out 'fish', while we want to teach people how to fish.


A separate forum will not only make new members feel more comfortable, they will also learn to help themselves out. Because once they know what they are doing, i'm sure many members here are willing to help them further along. Since they wont be afraid to ask stupid questions, it can also bring out the creative side in them.

Hell they could even help each other. Nothing will stop them from posting in the other sections, it is up to them to decide where they want to post.

The search function can't exactly be improved a whole lot. It is what it is, you search something it gives you the results. It's not the search function that doesn't work, but people common sense. It even tells you how to narrow down results. Spending five minutes searching for a topic is a lot better then procrastinating and saying it doesn't work at all.

[brogdenlaxmiddie]

Mr. Crowley, I take my hat off to you for several reasons:
1-That was probably the most understanding and convincing thing I have ever heard or read in an argument
2- You took the time to write out all of that
3- You didn't lose you cool
4- You gave good examples

So, Im my opinion, if more and more people started acting as such, then we wouln't have to worry if there are a few bad apples. Just because there is one killer loose in a city, that doesn't make the whole city murderers. However, I do agree in that the noobs shouldn't be spoon fed. They should have a thing on the site that once they sign up, its a week before they could actually post anything. That might help with some of the less intelligent questions. Because you would be nipping the opportunity for them to make something like "Hey, What kind of ignitor can i use in my new numatic?!?" It would force them to read and hopefully, with a week of reading, they would find the answer to their own question. Then they could turn around and hopefully build a productive device that would be posted, so that the community can explain how to improve upon it on the next go-around.
So in conclusion, I support the anti-spooning of noobs group.

[MrCrowley]

Just to make it clear Poland, i'm not against helping members, just spooning.

In my definition...

Spoonfeeding: Feeding information to a member when a member requests said information and has no idea what they are doing or haas not attempted to learn by themselves.

Helping: Giving advice and direction to a member who has asked a question but has some clue to what they are doing, or is in the process of learning by themselves.

Questions which aren't neccesarrily answered by spoonfeeding, such as 'Where is the best place to put my igniter?', will fall under the first catagory for the simple reason they haven't bothered to search, or didn't search long enough. I'm sure it'd be in the Wiki.

[jrrdw]

Me, I really don't mind explaining/teaching some one something they don't know.

The sections needed would be.....
1) Construction/Parts Questions
2) My 1st Working Cannon
3) Website Navigation
4) Complaints/Disagreements, (Get it out of their system)
5) Links/Plans (Links to plans, hand drawings and supporting threads, read only)

That's all I can think of right now. Open to modification/suggestions. I would probably spend a lot of time there, modding/helping n00bs of course.

I gave something good to work off of and you guys turned it into another structured argument about spoon feeding n00bs instead of building a useful section/site for new spudders. Thanks and keep up the good work! I should lock this out of pure spite!

[CS]

How many members on this site can efficiently communicate relevant information? Next to none.

It is the same reason why most threads on this site stretch past a page in length. We say the site is becoming more "noobish" but wouldn't that make answering questions easier?

Most members don't take the time to communicate and explain there statements. Some will give answers, but won't ratify those answers with any information.

To explain my point I pulled up the most recent thread: What would be the best valve...

Not until 9 posts in do we get someone putting effort into there post. (DYI first explains why a butterfly valve would not be a good choice after all. Then he continues to by stating he believes a homemade piston would be the best valve to use. He then again explains his reasoning behind this recommendation.)

The thread is now 11 posts long and we still have not managed to give him a uniform answer to his question. Right now the answer to his question is strung between: homemade piston valve, coaxial piston valve, union burst disk, piston valve, sprinkler valve.

A lot of you guys remind me of the teacher that says they love teaching, but then hand outs a bunch of worksheets. They still have a passion for teaching, but don't put forth a lot of effort because of there laziness. Kind of understand where I am going? (Don't pick it apart because it isn't a perfect analogy)

Eh?

[jrrdw]

@pimpmann22-Most of those post in your example didn't require explaining or fact to back them up.

Here in-lies the tricky part of when and where to give up information. Should you give up what kind of valve is what? My answer is no. A new spudder should do at least that much research.

If said spudder ask: How fast does one valve compared to another open? My answer is yes, if you know the answer give it to said spudder. If a new spudder can name different types of valves, it shows said spudder did some research on the subject.

How does one gauge the knowledge of a fellow member through written word? What are the true qualifications?

[POLAND_SPUD]

If said spudder ask: How fast does one valve compared to another open? My answer is yes

before they ask that question they have to know that opening time is something important

[jackssmirkingrevenge]

Spooning: Feeding information to a member when a member requests said information and has no idea what they are doing or haas not attempted to learn by themselves.

Are you sure, there aren't many members on here I'd like to spoon

I think it's best to stick to "spoonfeeding"

[SpudFarm]

you can find anything jack, megalol for you

[MrCrowley]

Spooning: Feeding information to a member when a member requests said information and has no idea what they are doing or haas not attempted to learn by themselves.

Are you sure, there aren't many members on here I'd like to spoon

I think it's best to stick to "spoonfeeding"

HAHAH! Damn, that was my conscious effecting my writing. Can't believe I wrote that

Thanks for picking that up.


@Pimp,

If he asked what is the best valve to use and why, I would give him the answer. He only asked one question, so I answer it. If he wants reasoning, he can ask for it. I will go out of my way to help a guy out and give him direction, but it's still his job to do all the research.

We really should be only giving direction, so they know what to look for. They can then learn for themselves why it is what it is, if they have problems understanding, they can ask and we can help. But i'm not going to help someone who is not willing to help themselves. (not saying the guy in that thread is like that).

Me, I really don't mind explaining/teaching some one something they don't know.

The sections needed would be.....
1) Construction/Parts Questions
2) My 1st Working Cannon
3) Website Navigation
4) Complaints/Disagreements, (Get it out of their system)
5) Links/Plans (Links to plans, hand drawings and supporting threads, read only)

That's all I can think of right now. Open to modification/suggestions. I would probably spend a lot of time there, modding/helping n00bs of course.

I gave something good to work off of and you guys turned it into another structured argument about spoon feeding n00bs instead of building a useful section/site for new spudders. Thanks and keep up the good work! I should lock this out of pure spite!

We have a useful site for new spudders, it's called the Spudwiki.
We can't fit in another 5 sections on the forum, aside from having too many, it would make the forum look like crap.

1) We already have that section, if we had a section just for n00bs or new members, you may as well just make it the one section and anything goes, no need to sort it out as it will be mostly unmoderated anyway.

2) The showcase section, cannons belong there. I'm not sure what you're getting at, their first cannon, or ours? Either way, showcase section.

3) Again, SpudWiki.

4) Complaints? Disagreements? On what? There's the Website Discussion for site complaints or queries. Other then that why would someone complain about spudguns? And disagreements? 'I disagree that ball valves are slower then piston valves, I rest my case'.

If there is a logical disagreement it can go in the discussion or theories section, where you discuss.

5) Wiki, How-To Section. If they need step-by-step plans to make a cannon, they shouldn't be making one.

If I have misunderstood, feel free to correct me but I didn't quite understand what you were getting at.



@Pimp, again.

The other day I had a member who posted three topics, two of them asking the same question and all three very basic, very stupid questions to ask which could be very easily researched. Oh and they all were in the wrong section and in each one I replied telling him about the rules, where to post, how to search, where to research etc, each time being ignored.

Now if I had put a huge in depth reply to each of his topics, he wouldn't learn, he would think he can just ask for everything. Instead I PM'd him and talked to him for awhile, eventually finding out more about him and his purpose. I then gave him a brief description and pointed him in the right direction, he is probably of researching right now.

If I hadn't done that, we'd probably have 20 new topics from him asking more basic questions, eventually people get frustrated by this and realise they cannot simply carry on handing out information when it's already available.

This is not a matter of not helping someone, it's a matter of someone not willing to help themselves. The information is already on the site, we are not holding it back from them, it's out there for them to read, but they choose not to, so how is that our problem?

[SNDM]

Bloody Hell.
Not another forum board with noob-haters.
A) We dont have many noobs, really, I know this to scale.
B) The new people we have type legibly and ask questions that, although repeated a lot, take a few mere seconds to fully answer.
C) Generally seem nice and good-natured.

Really, this place DOES NOT have a problem. Don't start seeing noobs in every shadow.
Ive seen a lot of first timers with guns that are better than most of my work.

Noob - Person who asks stupid questions, while under the influence of Caps Lock or otherwise, where information is a few mere cm away. You can dislike these people for their terrible "leetspeak" type and impatient "tell me now, or STFU" attitude.

We have nothing of the sort.

[MrCrowley]

No offence but you've been here a few months. Most of the topics I, and others, speak off date back more then 5 months.

Seriously though, i'm not against 'noobs', i'm against people who cannot be arsed to do some bloody researching because they're too damn lazy and think we are here to change their diapers.

All the information they need is on this website, if they have trouble understanding some of this information, i'm willing to help them. But when they don't even bother, I'm not willing to waste my time.

The guy pimpmann22 linked too, I'm fine with a person like that. He had some idea what he was doing, referenced a few valves, that means he knows what he's dealing with and gave us details. He hasn't replied yet, but when he does we can narrow down what valve to use judging by what his exact purpose is.

[Ragnarok]

I wish to have it on record that I'm not a newbie hater.
We can't blame each and every newbie individually for making the common mistake of making a new topic.

I think we have to admit the search function, aside from not being very obvious, is a bit bewildering if you don't know how to use it - you type what you think is a simple request, then you get presented with a list of 300 topics, and you don't know which one to go for.

I seldom use the search, and usually when I do it's to find an old topic or reference that I knew existed in the first place, so I can use lots of search terms to narrow it down.

What I think we need to do is stop with the Search bashing, polish up the spudwiki on these subjects, and when a newbie comes calling, we give him the link to the relevant wiki page to allow him to do his own reading.

This kinda kills three birds with one stone - it makes the newbies do some of their own learning (and doesn't put them off, which will allow our community to grow), improves the wiki, and saves us having to repeat ourselves over and over.

So, next time a newbie comes, instead of a half hearted response, and screaming at them about the search function, you go to the wiki, contribute a line or two to the appropriate page, then give him the link to it, along with a short welcome to the forums?

...You know it makes sense.

EDIT: Anyway, while we're on the subject of topics in less than ideal places, should this one not be in Website discussion?